Battlestar Galactica Discussion

Eldhrin has gone AWOL, so we’re posting a discussion of the “Sine Qua Non” and “The Hub,” episodes which seem to be of a piece. We get Old Man fisticuffs, a Noble Gesture by the Old Man himself, Old Woman Visions, and a lot of questions:

1. WTF?
2. So Cylons can reproduce with each other?
3. Should Zarek, in fact, be president? Shouldn’t the Quorum have debated Lee’s appointment a bit more fiercely?
4. Would you take the advice of a lawyer with a dead cat?
5. Can the Hub never be reconstructed? The Cylons behave as though this is not merely difficult, but impossible. Why?
6. How many people chuckled over Baltar’s interactions with the Cylons, and how many saw them as further reason to wish Roslin had just let it bleed?
7.Could all of those times the Hybrid yells “jump,” be referencing a certain aquatic carnivore?

25 replies on “Battlestar Galactica Discussion”

  1. Trekkie says:

    bah

    7.Could all of those times the Hybrid yells "jump," be referencing a certain aquatic carnivore?

    yeah, loud & clear.

    plus the ‘yer a cylon’ then ‘psych’ was really flat out shitty

  2. Chillum says:

    Roslin
    I am at a loss to comprehend how anyone can still consider Roslin as anything other than loathsome.

  3. octa says:

    boo-urns
    That episode making Lee president was just god awful. I cringed in every scene with him and the lawyer.

    Also I thought the lawyer was blind? Did they retcon that or something?

    The following episode was much better but I still had a bad taste in my mouth from the previous one.

    I hope they can pull this off. That "psyche" was retarded.

    • rickyjames says:

      Re: boo-urns

      That episode making Lee president was just god awful. The following episode was much better but I still had a bad taste in my mouth from the previous one….

      Warning, uncloaked spoilers and numerous predictions on upcoming key plot poins below…

      I think you have to have to shower a bit of forgiveness on the former show as a production evil to allow the production of the later show as a gem written by the cream of Galactica’s staff, Jane Espenson. Jane’s "Hub" ep had it all – depth, drama, lots of expensive scenes and cuts and visuals. More on that below.

      "Sine Qua Non", in contrast, is a creaky, wheezing plot machine – most of which just didn’t make sense. OF COURSE Tom Zarek should be Acting President, and everybody knows it. After all the big deal for several seasons that BSG has made of upholding that universe’s version of the Constitution, for Zarek to roll over and withdraw before the first comercial break just because some military guy is initially rude is totally unforgivable for both the writers and the characters. Lee Adama gets made Acting President? Not only is that absolutely no surprise and therefore a total waste of time to watch even with the psycho lawyer theatrical padding, but who the frak cares? The whole point is moot when Rosyln jumps back to the fleet in 2 more eps. Surely we aren’t going to waste even more precious time with a Tom vs Lee fight over who is now truly VP…

      If we were going to do an ep on "those left behind", we should have FOCUSED entirely on the Cylon breeding story instead of making it an aside. The whole angle on how the Chief DOESN’T realize how important his kid is as a true equal to Hera as a human-Cylon hybrid, and how what’s-her-name who killed his wife DOES, is a HUGE dangling loose end.

      And now we’ve got a out-of-left-field Saul/Six pure-Cylon bun in the oven that Adama furiously punishes Saul for by, er, relinquishing the whole fleet over to his impreganting and potentially traitorous first officer becasue he, ADAMA, lacks judgement and objectivity over the Prez? Excuse me? Is this the most idiotic one-two command descision ever shown on BSG or what? I mean sure, we’ve got to get set up for the great Bill/Rosalyn homecoming of love but this just knocked over entirely too much credibility getting there.

      The depiction of Baltar as simultaniously being Judas and Jesus in the same scene at the same time was, in contrast, absolutely brilliant with points subtracted for Deanna’s head fake mere seconds later, of course. His earlier discussion with the Centurian was of course hilarious, but I think it is also a serious setup leading into where this whole story is going to end up… with the Group of Seven and the Group of Five able to sire true pure Cylon children with members of the other Group if not among their own, peacefully leaving Humans behind at Earth because making hybrids are no longer their priority, and the Baltar-inspired toasters with their new-found sense of right and wrong turned on as part of the Cylon Civil War eventually obliterating all of them.

      Another guess – Bill Adama will be the first made / last revealed skinjob Cylon, making Lee the original hybrid. Just too much irony being set up over Bill hating Saul next ep and loving Laura now. How he was emplaced in the first Cylon War, hinted at in Razor, is to be I think the subject of the upcoming Caprica series about the scientist Graysons and the political Adama families.

      Maybe ultimate, final obliteration by cold metallic Centurians of this increasingly tangled skein is inevitable…or maybe the highs and lows as mirrored in these 2 eps are just what’s required to make one great rollercoaster ride. That last headlong rush into the amusement park loading area when they put on the brakes and let you out of the car is coming up…

      • J_W_W says:

        Re: boo-urns

        That episode making Lee president was just god awful. The following episode was much better but I still had a bad taste in my mouth from the previous one….

        Warning, uncloaked spoilers and numerous predictions on upcoming key plot poins below…

        Another guess – Bill Adama will be the first made / last revealed skinjob Cylon, making Lee the original hybrid. Just too much irony being set up over Bill hating Saul next ep and loving Laura now. How he was emplaced in the first Cylon War, hinted at in Razor, is to be I think the subject of the upcoming Caprica series about the scientist Graysons and the political Adama families.
        .

        While I like BSG, even after being jerked around like this plot-wise for four seasons, I have NO interest in watching Caprica.

        • SgtBaker says:

          Re: boo-urns

          Another guess – Bill Adama will be the first made / last revealed skinjob Cylon, making Lee the original hybrid.

          That’s my guess as well – and Leoben actually whispered "Adama is a cylon" to Roslin’s ear in that season 1 episode where she first started dreaming.

          So why not.. the "secret" has been out there since season 1 :-)

    • Trekkie says:

      Re: boo-urns

      Also I thought the lawyer was blind? Did they retcon that or something?

      At the very end he popped his glasses off or something and Lee went ‘wha?’ and he said something about headfaking everyone.

      • valen1260 says:

        Re: boo-urns

        Also I thought the lawyer was blind? Did they retcon that or something?

        At the very end he popped his glasses off or something and Lee went ‘wha?’ and he said something about headfaking everyone.

        I thought that was with the cane.

  4. fliptw says:

    The President
    is it me, or has the only elected president since the fall been Baltar?

    we shouldn’t be surprised that the quorum really didn’t say much, simply because they let roslin back in again via a back door – when Zarek succeeded Baltar.

    If I was Lee, I would’ve booted Zarek to the curb. When he’s legally the president he can’t seem to keep the position for very long. The entire point of presidential succession is to avoid exactly what has happened when a president is no longer capable of performing their duties.

  5. J_W_W says:

    Re: Baltar’s wound
    I found it interesting the Baltar’s side was pierced by a centurion (or at least a piece of one), and blood and water flowed out of the wound.

    I think it was a overt Christ reference. I have to say that the repentant Baltar is more likable than he’s ever been. I also like that he confessed his greatest sin to Roslyn.

    oh, and the psyche moment was lame, but as much setup as there has been on the final one, I can see why the writers put it in there. It worked.

    As for complaints about the writing being lame and jumping fish, this series has been using writing tricks and contortions from season one on in order to provide "dramatic" revelations, nothings changing now, except that their dramatic stretches are getting harder and harder to really believe because they’ve been piling up for so long.

    • Trekkie says:

      Re: Baltar’s wound

      I found it interesting the Baltar’s side was pierced by a centurion (or at least a piece of one), and blood and water flowed out of the wound.

      Nice catch, totally missed that reference.

  6. joe__gee says:

    I’ve enjoyed the past two episodes …
    In our desire to hyperanalyze (and I know, I’m definitely guilty of this myself) perhaps we’re missing out on the fact that this show is still written at least a magnitude of notches higher on the intelligence scale than 98% of other television series past and present?

    I’m still not certain D’Anna’s "psych" wasn’t an ill-considered statement of truth, followed by a hasty retraction. Cylon intellects are quick, they’re not flawless.

    I loved the episode with Lamkin. I found it interesting that Lamkin, after wading through his despair, was given hope.

    The entire point of what is going on now in the fleet is that everyone realizes they’re in the end game. Laura’s battle with cancer is symbolic of humanity’s current state. The population keeps *decreasing*, and many in the fleet have got to be tiring. Unless the survivors find an Earth armed to the teeth and willing to take them in, these are humanity’s final weeks.

    I’d bet some time in the near future we begin to hear about suicides going up in the fleet. We may see the tillium supply exhausted, and more survivors crowded on to fewer ships. We may even see entire ships self-destructing intentionally.

    Bill Adama, the Quorum, Romo Lampkin, the President, Tighe: they are now each at their breaking point. Their reactions speak to how they go to ground handling unspeakable personal crises. We know these characters well. We have watched them struggle. Some will rise and shine, others will sink and fall.

    Did anyone else catch that Galactica disappearance in the first episode jeopardized the entire fleet’s supply of tillium? Adama handed over the reigns to Tighe because he realized that even knowing Tighe’s problems (ambrosia, Ellen, the bun in Six’s Toaster oven), he couldn’t currently lead as effectively as his XO. That’s pretty low for Bill.

    As for Roslyn, I don’t despise her. I laud Galactica’s writers for giving the most realiztic portrayal of aggressive cancer and its impact I have ever seen on television.

    Living with aggressive cancer is like eating through a month old bag of apples. In the beginning some are delicious, some are bad, and some are horribly rotten. As you get down to the bottom of the bag the rotten ones have begun to turn most of the good ones, and the unspoiled bites come farther and farther between.

    The special effects of the second episode were amazing. The destruction of the resurrection hub was brilliantly done. The destruction of the resurrection hub was a flare of hope: it was the first major victory of the Colonials since the original attack. For me it was a very moving moment.

    I felt Baltar was the annoying one. When Baltar was severely wounded I was pleased. When Laura pulled the bandage off I said, out loud, "it’s about time." I was annoyed when she put the bandage back on, but I could understand why she did what she did.

    The inter-jump scenes with Eloisha worked well for me. Sitting aside writing decisions and plot pacing, which are beyond my control anyways, as an end consumer of the televised product that is BSG I found these past two episodes to be thought provoking, and satisfying.

    But that’s me. :)

    -Joe

    • Babbster says:

      Re: I’ve enjoyed the past two episodes …
      I thought the first episode was weak, but the weakness was in the civilian political plot while the Galactica-centric material was interesting and exciting (illogical and confusing, too, but I’m cool with that). Tom Zarek has gone from being a compelling character to being nostalgic, useless furniture. At best he’s a plot device and at worst he’s a gratuitous cameo.

      The second episode was awesome. I was fully emotionally invested in everything that happened. I just hope Laura doesn’t die before seeing Earth – I can’t help liking her, even when she’s probably doing wrong.

      If they can close out the series with half the remaining episodes (including the last) being as good as The Hub, I’ll be quite content.

      • J_W_W says:

        Re: I’ve enjoyed the past two episodes …

        I thought the first episode was weak, but the weakness was in the civilian political plot while the Galactica-centric material was interesting and exciting (illogical and confusing, too, but I’m cool with that). Tom Zarek has gone from being a compelling character to being nostalgic, useless furniture. At best he’s a plot device and at worst he’s a gratuitous cameo.

        The second episode was awesome. I was fully emotionally invested in everything that happened. I just hope Laura doesn’t die before seeing Earth – I can’t help liking her, even when she’s probably doing wrong.

        If they can close out the series with half the remaining episodes (including the last) being as good as The Hub, I’ll be quite content.

        Moses, errr Laura should die within sight of Earth.

        Also, if she’s a cylon then that whole hybrid saved her life bit would be blown away. But hell, this show blew away so many great character backstories that I can’t be sure they won’t do the same to Roslyn.

        Also, Baltar can’t be the final cylon either because that will make his backstory and the weight of his confession in Hub meaningless.

        But I’m not confident that the writers of the show have enough respect for their material to not do either of these things for the pure shock value…

        BSG’s a great show, but they’ve at many points built amazing stories that expand the show, but do so by eroding its foundation.

      • madhack says:

        Re: I’ve enjoyed the past two episodes …

        I just hope Laura doesn’t die before seeing Earth – I can’t help liking her, even when she’s probably doing wrong.

        I’m pretty sure that’s the point. She and Adama have quite nearly changed positions over the course of the series. Roslin sure reminds me of the commander who ordered the destruction of the Olympic Carrier (over Roslin’s objections, mind you). The interesting thing to me is how watching the transformation can affect one’s perceptions. Most fans just accepted that Bill Adama was a hardened war veteran who was just doing what had to be done; it’s a little harder to see the same thing from a woman who was a peaceful and gentle (and possibly even naive) schoolteacher just a few years ago.

        There were a lot of plot conveniences in "Sine Qua Non" that were awkward, but all of them seemed mostly to suffer from time compression. The change of command and presidential succession bits would’ve been more plausible spread out over 2-3 more episodes. I can’t help but wonder what pressure the writer’s strike put on those plot threads (or what pressure Sci Fi put on them by insisting in splitting the season). Or I could just be making excuses for the writers, since such mishaps are rare flaws on an otherwise brilliantly-written series.

        Incidentally, I still haven’t decided if the Centurions are smarter than has been let on and Baltar was being humored, or if Gaius was really the only one of them manipulative enough to realize that they’re basically intellectual children and therefore rather open to suggestion.

    • Trekkie says:

      Re: I’ve enjoyed the past two episodes …

      In our desire to hyperanalyze (and I know, I’m definitely guilty of this myself) perhaps we’re missing out on the fact that this show is still written at least a magnitude of notches higher on the intelligence scale than 98% of other television series past and present?

      I honestly think my complaining and rabble rabbleing about the show comes from the humongous time delays between season 3 and 4, and now the completion of season 4. It’s a shitty gimmick, and the people in charge deserve to be roschambo’d in the nuts about 50 times a day for doing it.

      • joe__gee says:

        Re: I’ve enjoyed the past two episodes …

        I honestly think my complaining and rabble rabbleing about the show comes from the humongous time delays between season 3 and 4, and now the completion of season 4. It’s a shitty gimmick, and the people in charge deserve to be roschambo’d in the nuts about 50 times a day for doing it.

        Ya know, there is that … Speaking of delays, when is this half season supposed to finish?

        -Joe

        • Timeshredder says:

          Re: I’ve enjoyed the past two episodes …

          Ya know, there is that … Speaking of delays, when is this half season supposed to finish?

          -Joe

          Next week, I think.

  7. Damien says:

    Are they all…?
    Given that:

    * We now have cylons procreating with other cylons,

    * In Razor the old guy (the hybrid) says something like "this has all happened before, and will happen again",

    .. I think they are *all* cylons, that they are all that remains of the original humans, and when they get to Earth they’ll discover a planet ran by the machines.

    BTW I think that the final cylon is Helo.

    • sjaskow says:

      Re: Are they all…?

      .. I think they are *all* cylons, that they are all that remains of the original humans

      I agree since that seems to be where the story line is headed. It’s also fits with the 4 hidden ones hearing "All Along the Watchtower" when they figured out who they were.

    • Count_Zero says:

      Re: Are they all…?

      Given that:

      * We now have cylons procreating with other cylons,

      * In Razor the old guy (the hybrid) says something like "this has all happened before, and will happen again",

      .. I think they are *all* cylons, that they are all that remains of the original humans, and when they get to Earth they’ll discover a planet ran by the machines.

      BTW I think that the final cylon is Helo.

      Let me say that I have loved the last 3 episodes. I was getting very frustrated with the lull there in episodes 2-6. They have really stepped up. Someone needs to figure out how to get through to the Sci-fi Channel executives so they stop doing this crap with split seasons. The preview for this weeks episode doesn’t say anything about being the last one of this half season, I wonder how many people realize that its the last one until 2009. (I hear they are going to do it to Eureka as well.)

      The main reason for the 6/Ty love child is backup the fact that Helo is a cylon and to prove that the final five are a different kind of cylon. Capable of having children with other 7 Cylons.

      In the end, I think that the writers are trying to blur the lines between Cylon and Human so when they get to earth they realize that they are all related some how.

    • joe__gee says:

      Re: Are they all…?

      Given that:

      * We now have cylons procreating with other cylons,

      * In Razor the old guy (the hybrid) says something like "this has all happened before, and will happen again",

      .. I think they are *all* cylons, that they are all that remains of the original humans, and when they get to Earth they’ll discover a planet ran by the machines.

      BTW I think that the final cylon is Helo.

      I suspect the only true humans are the 13th tribe. https://www.bureau42.com/view/3997 . I was wrong on older / newer model interbreeding. With the rest of it I think I’m still on track.

      -Joe

  8. Avory says:

    Laura Roslin=Moses?????
    I was reading the review for the B.S.G. episode "Hand of God" and someone brought up the point that Moses and Roslin were almost eerily simillair.
    I just wanted to point out that that the story of Moses has been strangely important to alot of the episodes.
    Obviously, Exodus part 1 and part 2. And then again, when Laura reclaims the presidency after Baltar’s trial she finds out that people are worshiping him, and one of her orders ends up getting Baltar (The Isrealites) beat (killed). I guess that is a bit of a stretch but I just thought it was sort of funny.

  9. Avory says:

    About The Cylons Reproducing
    I’m not really sure about this, but maybe the reason they can suddenly reproduce on their own now is because their mortal now. Before, obviously there was no reason for the Cylons to reproduce, but now that Cylons die, to carry on their species they’re going to have to. Since the writers seem to be leaning toward the whole "God Thing", it would be reasonable to say that God prevented it before, but is now allowing it.

    • Avory says:

      Re: About The Cylons Reproducing

      I’m not really sure about this, but maybe the reason they can suddenly reproduce on their own now is because their mortal now. Before, obviously there was no reason for the Cylons to reproduce, but now that Cylons die, to carry on their species they’re going to have to. Since the writers seem to be leaning toward the whole "God Thing", it would be reasonable to say that God prevented it before, but is now allowing it.

      I meant to say "They’re mortal now". Sorry

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